The interview made by Wolfzeit magazine (wolfzeit@web.de).
Thanks goes to Dragon Rouge Poland.

Tommie Eriksson is Therion's ex-guitar player, he is also a member of Dragon Rouge to which Christofer Johnsson and Thomas Karlsson belong (Thomas was also the founder of this organization). One can find here some explanations of some words and concepts which may be found in Therion lyrics. (Thor)

All over the world, in myths and legends of all cultures, Dragons play a big and important part. What are the obvious meanings and what are the deeper layers of such legends? What is the profound meaning of the Dragon?

This is something that is slowly revealed during the long and hard process of the great work. But I can proceed to lay forth some of my thoughts on the subject, however. The dragon is a unique entity since it can be found in so many cultures. Generally what denotes a dragon in mythology is that it combines the elements (the scales-water, the wings-air, the body-earth, the fiery breath-fire) and thus becomes the fifth element, the quintessence. In certain myths the dragon also carries a pearl or a stone which can symbolize wisdom and magical power. This symbolism can for example be found in gnostic texts in which the dragons pearl symbolize the higher self. And in the myths of the Nagas they are also carrying a pearl, and the elixir that can grant eternal life, but which is also a deadly poison. Most interesting is the fact that the Dragon is a union of the Serpent and the bird-the sky and the earth. These two poles are in each end of the central axis (Sushumna, Irminsul/Yggdrasil etc.). This can be compared to Iormundgandr at the base of the Yggdrasil and the eagle at the top of the tree. In Tantrism we can find the Shiva/Shakti dyad. Shakti arising from the Muladhara chakra unites with Shiva at the Ajna chakra, the kundalini at this stage arises as a winged dragon. The dragon symbolizes the final stage of the kundalini process, where man becomes a god. The divine spark has been activated and transformed into the black diamond. The pearl of the dragon in the myths corresponds to the final stage of Alchemy (The Philosophers Stone, Elixir Vitae, the diamond etc.). In traditional western alchemy the path of initiation is a Óvia sacraÓ, which is influenced by monotheistic religion and and which seeks to annihilate what is viewed as dark aspects. The Lapis Niger is in this tradition viewed as only the base stone of Saturn, which is to be ennobled to the higher white level and the philosophers stone, gold or diamond. But the true alchemy of the dark mysteries of Khem was concerned with the creation of the black elixir/powder/stone. The Rubedo level corresponds to the Black Diamond. Thus the red/Rubedo level is the true stage of fulfillment. The alchemical goal of the right hand path corresponds to the Sahasrara chakra and the passive eternity of annihilation, while the Black Diamond level corresponds to the secret chakras above Sahasrara and a dynamical active eternity. The Black Diamond is the higher form of Lapis Niger, just as the red Muladhara chakra is found in a higher form at the Sahasrara level. Ouroboros, the encircled serpent symbolizes this process of complete initiation. Thus the dragon includes the basis of the transformation of man which in our bodies is the Kundalini. Draconian Alkhemy is a via sinistra. On the deepest levels, the dragon is the fractal, the ever changing pattern of dynamical life force.

Where does the Dragon originate? (Please tell us about the archetypical principle of the Ur-Dragon.) Do you think there are actually historical events that have taken place in a far past, which are nowadays overshadowed by myth and legend concerning the "real dragons"?

I assume that you are here referring to the mythological origin of the dragon. Dragon like entities are mentioned in ancient Sumerian and Egyptian sources and images from about 3000 bce has been found in the Sumerian culture. Scholars used to believe that the Chinese dragon had it"s origin in the west. But in 1987 a 1.78 m long mosaic from 5000 bce depicting a dragon was found in a grave in northern China. In the myths the dragon is often connected to the primeval waters before creation. The word Tehom means "the deep sea" in Hebrew and this is the same word as Tiamat. In the Babylonian myth the world is created from the body of Tiamat. In the Christian myth Tehom/Tiamat is also part of the creation. In many myths of creation the body of a dragon or giant is slain to create the heaven and the earth, thus the physical earth can be seen as a form of the dragon, and our bodies which in the Babylonian myths are created from the blood of Kingu as containing godlike qualities. The kundalini of the earth and the body are two aspects of the dragon, the inner and the outer dragon. The UR-dragon is connected to the primeval waters before creation and to the dynamic force in creation. This is also interesting to compare with certain qabalistic theories of the two forces in creation. The static and the dynamic, the dynamic force breaking out of the structure of the static force and thus giving rise to the Qliphoth. The origin of the word dragon is from the Greek verb "derkein" which means "seeing" , "to see" or "to see clearly". Practical work with the kundalini can lead to a level of deep clairvoyance or Óclear seeingÓ in which the magician sees through the veil of the world. This veil of Maya is in right hand path systems viewed as an illusion which the adept must resist and break through. But a draconian adept views Maya-Shakti as force and potentiality, not as something to escape from. Right hand path traditions are based on ethical structures that are mostly theoretical. Left hand path traditions are practical and the key to magical work is to act, to do. The word reality in Swedish and German is "Verklighet" and "Wirklichkeit", words that describe existence as an active state, not a passive journey, but a situation based on ones will and work. You are mentioning historical events, "real dragons", well, who knows...

In christian lore, the Dragon has over the ages been reduced to a symbol of evil, has been made to a personification of "The Devil". Wellknown stories are the revelations of St.John or the tale of St.George slaying the dragon. At which point did the dragon become one with Satan?

The dragon as a primordial being of chaos, has been viewed with respect and fear. The Christian lore has taken this fear to extreme levels and as a symbol of life force the dragon archetype has been repressed, just as man"s life force. But in the Asiatic cultures the dragon is viewed quite differently. But to stay inside the Christian lore, for the sake of saving space, the dragon slayer myths are describing how the Pagan tradition is conquered by the monotheistic religions. But also how the life force is deactivated. When the dragon is thrown into the abyss, so is our life force. Draconian magic is thus a path into the abyss to awaken the life force. In the Christian lore the dragon becomes Satan. The serpent in the garden of Eden (Lilith) personifies the kundalini aspect , life force, the dynamical force which breaks the perfect order of God"s creation. This corresponds to the number 11 (Qliphoth).

Do you think that the dragonslayer-tales like St.George and the norse/germanic Siegfrid have a much deeper, hidden context than the one that meets the visible eye? If so, what do you think is the deeper meaning of such stories?

It is evident that such myths that you are mentioning here have many deep layers of information. It is interesting how Siegfried after having slayed fafner can understand the singing of the birds. It is a tale of initiation. The two tales that you are mentioning are different in an important aspect. Siegfried gains magical abilities and "becomes" the dragon, while St George, sadly just tries to kill it.

As far as I understand it, the dragon is a "female force". It represents the eternal circles of nature, but it also stands for the wild, untamed forces of the unconscience. Please explain this concept.

The dragon is not necessarily a female entity. And i want to emphasize that In Dragon Rouge we do not work so much with the dragon in the classical form, as the ÓanimalÓ. But more as the world kundalini and in deeper aeonic aspects. But the Kundalini can be viewed as feminine, even if there are both the Ida and the Pingala aspects. Lilith in the shape of the serpent in the garden of Eden is an interesting example. To me, the Óeternal circles of natureÓ and Óthe wild untamed forces of the unconsciousÓ are not opposites, really. In our modern existential structure nature is the unknown, the wild. The order of nature is from our perspective almost as chaos. Man"s order is unnatural but still viewed as right, and thus nature becomes the dark antithesis. The outer dragon can be found in nature, in the energy of the earth, called Earth Power, Od, …nd, Vril etc. This power is not included in the so called ÓcivilizationÓ of today. Thus a draconian magician needs to enter the dark side also of this world, which is nature at night. Of course the are aspects of the dragon which are completely outside the circles of nature. This is related to the Black Dragon. In Dragon Rouge we are working both with the Red Dragon and the Black Dragon. The Black Dragon corresponds to the anti worlds of the shadows and what can be called Universe B.

What is Draconian Magic and what does the DR do? Where do the philosophies of the draconian path stem from? In how far does Draconian Magic resemble the teachings of Kenneth (Grant and the way of Typhonian Magick?

I believe that I in the previous answers has been unable to avoid discussing the system of Dragon Rouge. But to continue, the Draconian Magic of Dragon Rouge is an Alkhemical progression from the state of being a creation to the state of creating ones own existence. Our initiation system is based on the 11 spheres of the Qliphoth but also on certain patterns from the old Norse-Odinic structures. The system of Dragon Rouge is not influenced or similar to that of the Typhonian OTO. We are using certain names and symbols that are similar or the same, but there are fundamental differences between our systems. In DR we are for example entering the Qliphoth at the Lilith qlipha, and are not based on a traditional western magical structure. Our initiations are practical (but of course also demands intellectual progression) and the level of initiation is only known by the magician and the brothers and sisters on the same level or higher. The levels are really just defining where you are, but a darkmagical order needs certain structures to contain the extreme experiences and workings.

Official information about the Dragon Rouge system:

The Dragon Rouge system is based on four main magical traditions: The Draconian/Typhonian Alkhemy, The Qliphotic Qabalah, The old Norse Odinic magic and Vamacara Tantra. But these are just methods and maps. A magician in Dragon Rouge can work with his preferred tradition but applied to our system of initiation and the Draconian Alkhemical progression. For the Main Body of Dragon Rouge in Sweden, of course the old Norse Odinic system is very important and for some the main magical focus.

The above traditions all share the fact that the adept is guided step by step, down into the darkness where he/she can become a god. If the adept follows the path of Odin or the Egyptian alkhemical god Chepera and enters the underworld and sacrifices him/herself to him/herself the adept can complete the transformation from being a creation to being a creator. The world was not created at some moment in the past as the monotheistic religions are claiming. The world is created in every moment, something that Friedrich Nietzsche pointed out. The initiation system is based on 1 + 9 +1 levels. The first step is where the uninitiated begins. An opening of the gate to the dark side. The following 9 steps represents the 9 levels of the nightside or the underworld that Odin passes through on his initiation in the secrets of the runes. These steps brings the adept to the heart of darkness and transforms man into a god (like promised by the serpent in Genesis 3:5 when man begins the initiation by eating of the fruits of knowledge). The last step is beyond the limits of creation.

1. Lilith 1.0 . The gate to the unknown.

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2. Gamaliel 2.0 The dark dreams. Astral magic. Witchcraft. The mysteries of the dark moon. The dark Goddess.

3. Samael 3.0 The philosophy of the left hand path. The wisdom of insanity. Yezidi magic. The dark side of the Chakras.

4. A"‡rab Zaraq 4.0. Luciferian magic. The dark side of Venus. Eroto-mysticism and the path of the warrior.

5. Thagirion. 5.0. The illumination of the nightside. The black sun. The union of the god and the beast.

6. Golachab 6.0. Ragnar¹k. The activation of Surt/Sorath. The magnetism of lust and suffering.

7. Gha"agsheblah 7.0. The higher levels of eroto mysticism. Preparations for the abyss.

8. Satariel 8.0. The opening of the eye os Lucifer/Shiva/Odin. The Drakon principle.

9. Ghagiel 9.0. The lightening of the Luciferian star.

10. Thaumiel 10.0. The accomplishment of the promise given by the serpent. Divinity.
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11 Thaumiel 11.0. The black hole. The step into the new creation. Universe B.

Are there certain techniques to alter the consciousness, hence, to alter reality itself? In how far do these techniques correspondent with yoga, meditations or trance techniques? Is the Red Dragon also a synonym for the Kundalini-forces?

We are based on an empiricistic occultism which means that besides the structures of the primary magical system, every magician uses what works for him/her. Some of these techniques correspond to the Tantric system and we are using many trance techniques. As can be understood from my answers above, the kundalini can be viewed as the inner dragon. The Dragon Rouge system is not so much contained in certain mythologies or magical systems, but rather in how one works magically within these. Our magical/alkhemical system of progression can be adapted to many known systems.

Does the Dragon also stand for sexuality, for libidous powers? In how far does sex /sex - magick play a role inside the DR?

All magic which involves the kundalini can be said to sex magic. But not sex in a physical sense. We are using tantric techniques and are working with the different aspects of the kundalini such as Prana, Vril, Od, …nd etc. The succubus/incubus force of the Gamaliel level is used to awake the kundalini and to progress to deeper levels.

In a lecture held by the german DR there was a technique mentioned, called "vampirism.What is meant by this?

What this specific lecture dealt with i can not tell you since i was not there, but in the system of Dragon Rouge there are aspects that could be connected to this term. The vulgar interpretation of vampirism, which has been picked up and boosted by horror movies is but a shadow of the true mysteries. The actual drinking of blood is of course a metaphor. In Draconian magic the adept does not use vampirism to suck life force from other people. A darkmagician activates the kundalini and needs no outer energy sources, but the vampirism is directed towards the inner force. Instead of letting certain mental/emotional patterns exhaust the energy it is all used in the magical process. In the DR system the adept is decoding and rearranging the inner structures in accordance with the magical system, the symbol of this process is Chepera. Chepera is a symbol of the state of mind that enables the magician to pass through the process and progress, the higher level of consciousness above thoughts and lower identification. In the process of becoming, the work with the Daemon/Beast aspect, the adept of Dragon Rouge uses the sexual energy to awake the kundalini and to open the Sun/Black Sun state. The energies of Gamaliel is the dynamo which energizes the Thagirion process. The Thagirion level corresponds to deities like Fenriz, Surt, Sorath and most significantly to the magical Daemon intelligence of the adept. The word vampirism can signify "to drink", the draconian adept drinks from the chalice of Odrorir, from the black grail of ecstasy.

The Dragon Rouge uses (very consciously) symbols and systems, that do have a bad reputation with traditional "right hand"-magicians or which provoke an uncertain feeling of anguish. (-> like the inverted pentagram, the sunwheel, the black diamond etc.) Why did you choose to work with those concepts?

A darkmagical order is working with the dark side, thus the symbols must correspond to this structure. The symbols are viewed as ÓevilÓ by the monotheistic religions, but what does that mean? The demonization of our life force and our power has led to a great part of reality being "hidden" and "forbidden". The "anguish" might arise when we are leaning over the edge of our little world. If you look at old maps of the world, dragons and monsters were believed to reside where no one had been. The darkness contains ourselves, our divinity. The terrible masks that cover this beautiful wisdom are turned from screaming to laughing as you pass them. They are laughing at the world, and we are laughing with them. I do not see the sun wheel as dark in any way, how can secular use of symbols in modern times influence the eternal structures? If one can not see beyond the foul skin that these symbols have been hidden behind, one misses a great deal. There is no "satanic" rebelism involved in our choice of symbols, but we are not trying to avoid this either. If there is a need to rebel against a system, one is still inside it and is ruled by it. But the rebelism might be a way out. Draconian Magic is outside the narrow frames of monotheism and secular paranoia. One needs to confront these symbols to leave the superstitions of the present age, so i understand why there is a satanic movement, but to stay in satanism is just to stay in Christianity. They feed of each other. The inverted pentagram represents Via Sinistra, a man upside down (also corresponding to viparita karani in Tantrism and thus to a certain antinomianism). This points down to the earth and "here and now". Monotheism have removed the soul of the world and nature and placed it in some distant heaven far away. Thus the here and now experience becomes meaningless, since this is an "evil" place filled with dangers. The devastation of nature and the spiritual degeneration is a result of this process. A draconian adept uses these symbols in the magical progression and these symbols have since a long time a powerful effect on the minds of mankind.

You also work with the "Nightside" of the qabbalistic Tree Of Life, where the "shells", the qliphoth reside. It is said that the symbol of the forbidden Tree of Knowledge in the garden of Eden stands for the qliphoth, while the (much more forbidden) Tree Of Life is symbolized by the sephiroth. Is the dragon then (in form of a serpent) the hidden teacher of mankind, the (Light-) bringer of Knowledge?

The serpent in the Garden of Eden is one of the most powerful archetypes of initiation. It corresponds to the kundalini, which certainly is the bringer of knowledge and a hidden teacher.

What is the meaning of the black diamond, the Adamas Ater ? Does it symbolism correspondent with the concept of the black sun and the hidden meaning behind the alchemical phrase "V.i.t.r.i.o.l." ?

In the system of Dragon Rouge the Black Diamond corresponds to the Thaumiel level, the Eye of Shiva/Odin/Lucifer. It is the last phase of the progression of the divine spark. The Black Diamond is the black hole which consumes all energy (the kundalini) and thus becomes indestructible. If we are using the qabalistic system to explain this process, the magician in DR is working with both sides, but with the emphasis on the Qliphoth. Thus the magician reaches Kether, but also Thaumiel. While the magician of the right hand path reaches Kether but not Thaumiel. By reaching Thaumiel the kundalini process has reached it"s final stage (on the right hand the aim is generally to annihilate the kundalini). The state of Kether can be described by the White Diamond (white Sahasrara chakra), the White Diamond state is what in many systems is called to become one with God (Samadhi). This state corresponds to the number 10. But the Draconian Magician who has also passed through the initiation of the Qliphoth and the kundalini can take one more step. Through the black hole ( which corresponds to the term "Sunya") into a level beyond Samadhi and Kether (which corresponds to the term "Kaivalya"). Instead of becoming one with God the Draconian magician becomes a god.

(The formula of V. I. T .R .I .O. L. describes the initiatic journey. It of course corresponds to the Black Diamond. The black sun corresponds to the Daemon/Beast state, which one works with at the Thagirion level)

Are you aware of the secret teachings of the "Ordo Draconis of Sarkenyny Rend", the draconian secret society (re-)established by Emperor Sigismund of Hungary in 1408? Occult scholars are convinced that this order reaches back to old egypt, precisely to the priest-prince Ankhfn-khonsu (2170 B.C.). Are there any similarities to the DR?

I don"t know if i would call that order "draconian", at least not in my interpretation of that word. It was called the Dragon Order and had a dragon as a symbol, that is true, but perhaps it did not actually work with the draconian current. I guess that this topic is popular due to the romantic ideas about Vlad Tepes. The "school" Scholomance is interesting, since the word comes from "Solomon". Thus there might have been Solomonic magic practiced there, and of course alchemy. I do not see any real similarities between that order and DR, we do not fight against muslims, to begin with.

Is sumerian / babylonian magick a source for the path of the DR?

Since the ancient cultures of Sumer and Babylon has had such a great and wide influence, it is hard not to be influenced by them. So yes, i would have to say that it is one source for our system.

In celtic times, the kings were called Pendragons. The pycts and scythes also use the symbol of the dragon. They were known for head & skull-cults, rituals deep beneath the earth in dark caves, the consumption of blood and a very shamanistic, ecstatic religion. Some say it all leads back to Sumer (where the kings and queens were also called Dragons) and maybe much deeper into the past, back to the legends of Atlantis, Hyperborea -> the Acardian Mysterium. What do you think about that?

Mythical kingdoms like Atlantis, used as a symbol or as an actual historical fact, could certainly be viewed as possible origin of the Draconian Cult. There are threads that can be recognized in many cultures; Egyptian, Sumerian/Babylonian and Indo-European Yezidian etc. In Dragon Rouge we are working with the concept of Atlantis, more as an astral level and state of consciousness or perhaps as a concept than as a physical place. The Scythes are indeed interesting.

What will happen with a person, when the Dragon awakes in him/her? Do you think that every human being is capable to awake and handle the powers of the Dragon?

A 16. Many people who are working with the kundalini are not aware of the outer kundalini and the earth force and that the dragon is a shape which symbolizes energy in it"s highest form. To work with the kundalini without understanding what an extreme force it is, can be dangerous. I also believe that it is a danger in viewing a spiritual path as only containing things that one likes or understands, symptomatic of the right hand path. The dragon is also the fractal, the ever changing pattern. This dynamic energy is a pulse, which the Draconian magician follows. This is the breathing of chaos, the constant creation and destruction. If a magician goes against the grain, against creation, it is because he/she is following this pulse. Going against the grain-antinomianism can also be a way to find this pulse in ones life. True antinomianism has, however, very little to do with doing things that others think is "wrong" or "bad". It is the much more challenging path of doing things that breaks ones inner structure to create a new one according to the magical progression. Antinomianism is a rather difficult aspect, since it demands extreme discipline and will. This Draconian pulse is pure energy, and the magician can direct the journey with his will and is not a passive passenger. To work with this force is truly a great work. Everyone can awake the kundalini, but to channel this force in a magical work demands great efforts. The outcome of this work is closely related to the system in which the magician works. If one works in a classical western magical system the kundalini work might be a little difficult, since these structures are not capable of including this force. The Tantric system is very coloured of the Indian culture and to really understand it and work with it, one would almost have to become Indian. As a northern European one can use the old Norse system and it"s …nd force and work with the dragon lines and the runes. The old Norse system can certainly be used together with kundalini work.

The magical system of Dragon Rouge is based on certain aeonic patterns and is channeling the Draconian current according to these. Thomas Karlsson was appointed to start the order by advice of a secret organ of initiates in the Yezidi-Typhonian tradition. As they passed on their knowledge and authority to Dragon Rouge in 1990 the order was officially founded. We are not working with the Yezidi tradition in a cultural or mundane pattern, but only with the inner ancient draconian mysteries that this tradition has kept and preserved.